The Revenue-Focused Marketer

More From Our Content Repertoire:

• Answer Engine Optimization (AEO): The New Frontier of SEO in 2025
• Don’t Let AI Break Your Brand: What Every CMO Should Know
• How To Become An AI-Ready Organization

Transcript

0:11:
Hello and welcome to another episode of the revenue focused marketer where we discuss anything and everything related to marketing as well as data.

0:20:
Today’s guest is someone who’s not just talking about growth.

0:23:
He’s engineering it with one of the most complex traditional spaces out there, which is higher education.

0:30:
, welcome to the show, Brent.

0:32:
It’s great to have you here today.

0:33:
Just a little bit about him, he is the chief marketing officer at National American University, and he’s had decades of experience across growth marketing, branding, SAS, and stepped into higher education and helped drive NU’s first positive enrollment and financial trajectory.

0:53:
, he’s definitely a proven operator who’s really seen marketing and he’s only not even just focused on storytelling, but, you know, building system thinking.

1:04:
So in this episode, we hope to unpack the shift that is really happening in the US higher education.

1:12:
, and we’re here to talk about technologies that are really disrupting the space.

1:17:
So, , let’s get started.

1:20:
, I guess my first question for you would be from SAS and startups to university turnaround, what kind of pulled you into the world of higher education?

1:32:
Started long ago.

1:34:
I’m not gonna tell you how long ago, but it was a couple of decades plus, , as an admissions rep at University of Phoenix so.

1:45:
That was really my first foray into, , well, you know, I learned later become the name proprietary higher education, but I was too inexperienced at the time being so young, fresh kind of out of college to know the difference.

2:00:
I just really assumed everybody went to college the way I went to college, which is that’s the step that you take after you finish high school, and that’s kind of a privileged assumption, , and I became.

2:15:
You know, learn very quickly being on the floors and admissions were at that I was talking to adults.

2:22:
I wasn’t talking to, you know, 1819 year old, , recent high school graduates very often.

2:29:
I was talking to 30-somethings with kids, , working moms that were single.

2:35:
So, you know, was a, a lesson that came quickly is that what they need, what they want, and, and how you need to approach them in order to listen to the challenge and then appeal to their opportunity and show them a path may not always be clear, , is a little bit different approach than somebody who’s very young who just assumes that they’re gonna get into, you know, either a community college and that’s the path they’re gonna go.

3:04:
Or go to a traditional 4 years and live on campus and have that experience and that was really my first fora foray into, you know, higher education space, , especially on proprietary side on the online side and it’s been what I’ve done since then is, , just working with Multiple types of institutions, but traditionally it’s either fully online or institutions that are trying to go online and and a lot of them were forced to, you know, a few years ago during COVID, , , but.

3:39:
You know, there’s a, and what people don’t really realize is there’s a significant difference between online institutions that are good at being online institutions and online use institutions that are really just ground campuses that use a LMS system to complement their, their classroom teaching.

3:56:
Yeah.

3:57:
That’s incredible.

3:59:
And you’ve definitely seen a lot in this space.

4:03:
So let’s talk about, you know, what’s really changing nowadays, like, you know, I think AI is already making a tangible difference, , in pretty much every space today, every industry is being touched.

4:19:
So I’d love to hear your perspective about how is the, you know, education system or university system really changing.

4:27:
, with this new technology that’s out there.

4:31:
And so the AI to me, , just where we are right now.

4:37:
It takes me back again.

4:38:
I’m gonna go back to 2025 years ago.

4:45:
OK, so if you, , online emergence, so I’m, I’m still in, so overlappingenial GX, so I was, I grew up with a computer in my house and a computer, you know, in, in K-12.

5:03:
But it was the old school, so I’m talking in San Diego, where in the world is she playing that, playing that game.

5:10:
And when I got to college, you were still on dial up, but you would use a computer to submit, you know, papers, writing papers and things like that.

5:18:
And online as an educational tool was new.

5:25:
And univers again as a pioneer in that vertical was probably shunned, let’s be honest here, it was, it was frowned upon.

5:33:
And so online is a tool in the same way AI is a tool and so I see the, the move towards implementation and adoption of AI, , becoming ubiquitous.

5:47:
It’s just a tool and how well you use that tool and, and the platform is vertical that you use that tool is what matters.

5:53:
Is there potential for it to be used in a destructive or negative manner?

5:57:
Absolutely the same thing is true with online.

5:59:
It’s the same thing with any tools, a hammer, something that hits nails or a hammer a weapon, you know, it’s the same.

6:06:
And so I think where people get really kind of confused about what AI is and what its potential is, is they tend to do the human thing which is look at the potential negative as opposed to potential.

6:17:
And that’s a little frustrating, , and so if you want to go down a rabbit hole on potential negative, then I think something that can make you feel better is looking at the replacement paradox or the auto automation paradox where If really AI is out there and it’s just this destructive force that’s gonna replace every human’s job, who’s gonna be left money in the economy.

6:40:
So that’s a really interesting, , paradox to look at.

6:44:
I don’t think that’s true.

6:45:
I think what you’re gonna see is as resistant as higher education was to online.

6:51:
, and now ubiquitous and everybody does it, you’re seeing resistance to AI in the classroom in some pockets or how people are using it, but I think it’s just us figuring out how to actually optimize that tool, and that’s on the learning.

7:07:
I think on the operational and marketing side.

7:10:
It’s a great enhancer.

7:11:
I use it daily.

7:12:
, in fact, I, I, I wouldn’t be able to do my job right now.

7:16:
I would have to hire about 3 or 4 more people for content, , writing, , concept idea, just running problems through it, and I think it’s a great tool for that.

7:26:
But on the marketing side, where it’s a little, , uncertain for me is really on how it’s becoming integrated so much in the way we look for information and interactive information.

7:38:
, and so I’ll tell you, I, I think right now if you go ahead and just run a Google search or a Bing search, you’re gonna see top results are usually they got, right?

7:47:
But those are.

7:48:
And.

7:50:
You know, I’m, I’m waiting for the moment here where Google’s gonna figure out a way to monetize that.

7:55:
They just will.

7:57:
Oh definitely.

7:58:
Yeah, so it might be sponsored content at the top, but what I do know is that AI represents just an evolution of how are we going to interact with media, how are we gonna interact with information, where do we get our information, , and you know how we source that and make sure that’s what we’re looking for.

8:14:
AI is much better at that than the old search engine results page.

8:18:
So for the marketers out there where website is still kind of your window into your organizational soul, I think marketers have to be of the mind that, OK, it’s great to have great stories, that’s never gonna change.

8:30:
It’s great that you focus on getting your content, that human connectivity.

8:36:
I think there’s a premium on the human connection that’s gonna start to become more valuable, but you have to optimize your site with content and put it both in the, the, the way the human sees it, which is great specific content that the search engine can can see.

8:50:
But you also have to have your sche on the, on the code side of that.

8:53:
So you have to actually make sure that your site is developed in a way that, .

8:58:
The, the search engine is gonna see and say, OK, the scheme is right, the content’s right.

9:02:
This is the, this is the thing that I can serve up because the AI is still surfing the web on the back of being on the back of Google.

9:09:
It’s not its own search engine.

9:11:
It’s, it’s just optimizing the way search is done.

9:15:
Definitely.

9:16:
Yeah, I think the way we used to search is not ever gonna stay the same anymore.

9:22:
, even for myself, like, you know, just from being able to Google everything now it’s become chat GPT or some other tool, and Google’s definitely.

9:32:
Losing that spot when it comes to the default place where everyone goes to search and I think in terms of marketing, this is really gonna change the whole SEO game, right?

9:43:
We were so focused on back linking and getting our citations there and like, you know.

9:49:
, I think the whole EEAT is still gonna stay relevant, but now it’s pretty much about, are these AI tools even recognizing your business and recognizing the work that you’re doing.

10:03:
So for marketers out there that, you know, are struggling, figuring this space out, do you have any advice for them?

10:10:
And how are you kind of keeping up with the changing space of search?

10:15:
Yeah, so I, I still will go back to great content is great content is great content, , we’re inspired by stories and connective human nature.

10:24:
I just, we’re, we’re travel by nature.

10:28:
We want to be connected to somebody else, and AI, , doesn’t necessarily give us, you know, that.

10:37:
So there’s two things that I think are important, at least this is my opinion on our own, you know, I don’t want to be a researcher and misrepresent.

10:45:
But I do see a premium, .

10:48:
Coming where people are gonna want to know if they’re talking to AI or they’re talking to a real human and you see semblings of this, you see, you know, specs of this.

10:59:
If you go just, you know, back in time a little bit here I’m calling in to customer support, OK.

11:06:
frustrating is it if you can’t get a human on the phone and so you’re, you’re waiting and you’re hitting, you know.

11:14:
You’re hitting dial dial dial, you’re hitting the button, button button trying to get a connection.

11:17:
And I think what you’re gonna see is you’re gonna see a kind of a revolt if everything is AI, everything is a fake person on the phone, everything is an AI in a person.

11:27:
I use a platform that creates avatars, AI avatars, and it speaks for me and it’s great.

11:36:
But I, I don’t know if people are gonna be accepting of that.

11:41:
And so there’s a, there’s a theory you can read about called the uncanny valley and it’s this, , it’s this test of at what point does the automation or a robot give you the creeps as a human, right?

11:54:
I think.

11:56:
And it turns out there’s a real specific point where that happens.

11:59:
I see that human connectivity, human stories that connect A and B connect you and I together, , aren’t gonna be at a premium.

12:08:
There’s still gonna be the thing that matters the most.

12:12:
And so when you go to do your marketing, figure out your sto, figure out what narrative that you’re trying to tell.

12:19:
Find the need, fill the need what somebody wants and what.

12:24:
Now going about execution is about meeting them where to the point you make, how you might search generational using just the AI on your phone like, you know, hey Siri or hey who or whatever it might be is maybe different than the generation that came for you or so on and so forth and it’s probably gonna be different than the generation after.

12:44:
So you have to have your, , execution of how you get in front of people for that customer journey really mapped out, really understood where are my people at.

12:53:
, so education space, you know, there’s the demand gen where I want to generate leads, but you have to meet somebody if they don’t know who you are and don’t know what you do, , now you gotta tell them a story.

13:06:
You got to inspire them.

13:07:
Why are we different?

13:08:
Why are we unique?

13:09:
So understandable prospect understand particularly in higher education.

13:14:
You’re not just dealing with an instant gratification problem.

13:17:
You’re dealing with a journey.

13:18:
You’re dealing with somebody who might have already tried this and, and maybe not finished the degree and you might be a little bit fickle.

13:24:
So what are you going to say to them?

13:26:
How are you going to approach them that can encourage them, motivate them, help them overcome obstacles and concerns early in the process, and then get them to the point where they’re willing to engage and finally talk to somebody about getting a solution to move to that next phase of their career opportunity.

13:43:
Definitely.

13:44:
No, that’s really insightful.

13:46:
Thank you so much for sharing that.

13:48:
I think, , I kinda wanna zoom out a little bit and talk, talk about a very looming question.

13:56:
, are universities still preparing students for the world they’re actually graduating into?

14:03:
This is something that, you know, whenever I talk about education, higher education today and sort of the value of education today, this is something that kind of keeps coming up and we’re clearly seeing a shift everywhere, like, you know, skill-based hiring, micro credentials, remote for companies, and now, you know, AI accelerating everything again.

14:26:
So it feels like the Gulf Coast kind of just keeps moving and, you know, I would love to learn, like, you know, where’s your, you know, what’s your kind of opinion about this?

14:40:
Do you think at least in the US universities are able to kind of keep up?

14:46:
Yes, so I’ve worked in both, you know, the US market and more in the European market, , a Swiss institution and so there’s a lot to unpack on this question and I’m gonna kind of break it into two parts, but I’m gonna give you my answer, , which is duplicitous and I think it’s yes.

15:08:
It is and no it’s not.

15:10:
And both those things can be absolutely true.

15:13:
And so I’ll give you some examples of each .

15:16:
I think what we’re failing to connect the dots for a lot of potential students, a lot of people that are out there.

15:21:
I mean, there’s an article I can send you, I did some research last year and around 40 million, , Americans, US people have some college but no degree.

15:34:
lot of people who get almost to the promised land, you know what, right?

15:37:
So what do, what do they have?

15:40:
They have a bunch of credits, OK, but they don’t necessarily have a credential.

15:46:
And if you look back in time, I will bet generation prior to the micro credentials, the badging and all things that we’re trying to do now in higher education, particularly in in you.

15:57:
To show milestone progression that can be demonstrated on the resume, people were I would say castigated or or you know, wearing that scarlet letter that I, I have some credits but I don’t have a degree.

16:10:
They wouldn’t even put it on the resume that they finds you credit hours because the stigma was, well, you start, you can’t finish and so from an employer’s perspective that’s not great and I think that’s a disservice because it becomes a question of if somebody has 90 credit hours and somebody, another candidate has, you know, 0, why wouldn’t you say this person has a lot more training.

16:33:
In ways that maybe the other person doesn’t, and I think that’s what the disconnect is for a lot of people out there is what is it really getting me.

16:41:
Now I think there’s a whole lot of other factors that that impact this including socioeconomic, cultural, political, where higher education particularly degree programs have become devalued.

16:55:
Some of that is intentional.

16:56:
Some of it is absolutely fault of higher education in itself because.

17:01:
It’s a bit of a closed system where, you know, we, we like what we do.

17:06:
We talk about lifelong learning.

17:08:
The Carnegie Credit Hour is gospel and you have to have 3 or 4.5 or whatever your system is, and each credit has contact hours and you can’t show mastery.

17:17:
You have to show that you’ve done the, the work with the faculty member and then you can demonstrate that learning.

17:23:
These are all great things.

17:24:
But there’s a lot of people out there who have experience in the professional vertical or just a light vertical military things like that that don’t realize that they actually turn that experience into credit hours and we do a good job of that and you have a great platform for that.

17:39:
We don’t want you to feel like you’re being punished for not going to school because you went, right?

17:45:
Is that the higher education is kind of maybe lost its way a little bit and if you wanna do .

17:51:
, , an interesting exercise.

17:52:
I’ve done this multiple times with different, , AI models.

17:56:
, go on a GPT or whatever your favorite model is and ask it to create an ideal university of the future.

18:03:
What will it be?

18:04:
And it’s interesting the responsive gifts because It, it really looks nothing like what we have today for higher education.

18:12:
It’s, , accreditation is kind of out the window.

18:15:
, it’s really more about focused on career outcomes, , focused on schoolsagging.

18:21:
It’s on blockchain.

18:22:
You don’t need a resume anymore.

18:24:
You don’t really needranscript anymore.

18:26:
It’s all digitalized.

18:27:
No, this is all ideal, but this is where I think the disconnect is between higher education as it is today.

18:33:
And the consuming public because it doesn’t always make sense to Joe average.

18:38:
Why do I need to go do this for 4 years?

18:41:
OK.

18:41:
Why do I need to do this for 6 years?

18:44:
And so what, what can I do for 6 months that, , will get me to that next level of my career?

18:51:
I don’t want to spend 4 years.

18:52:
I have a, a mortgage.

18:53:
I got rent to pay.

18:54:
I got family to feed.

18:55:
I can’t quit my job.

18:57:
I focus solely on this for 4 years to maybe then get a better job.

19:01:
So higher education.

19:02:
And hasn’t done a great job in general, connecting the dots between why do you need these skills and what are those skills and then what those outcomes are.

19:10:
And I’ll tell you where it gets lost and where it gets me really dishearted.

19:14:
Mhm.

19:15:
, is listening to the generation that’s really kind of a gig generation, , you know, they may work multiple jobs.

19:24:
Kind of get, get to the point where they say, well, I don’t need school.

19:29:
I don’t even know how to do that.

19:30:
And then they come in once they realize they don’t have a whole lot to offer as far as skill set to upward mobility and, and careers.

19:38:
And they’ll say something like, I don’t need all, I don’t need to take English.

19:41:
I don’t need to take math.

19:42:
I don’t need to take social sciences.

19:43:
I don’t need to take lessons.

19:44:
I don’t need humanities.

19:46:
, I actually do, but if you know how to write, you know how to read, and you know how reading comprehension works, and you can.

19:53:
Go to an upper level complex class and get that and navigate that class for yourself if you can do complicated math already without foundations, go knock it out.

20:04:
There’s ways for you to get through it, but what people don’t realize a lot of times is We actually have those lower level courses, those, those foundational courses.

20:13:
There’s for a reason.

20:14:
They’re foundational.

20:14:
They’re scaffolding.

20:16:
Now the cost that is where I think education disconnects.

20:19:
Do they need that amount of cost?

20:21:
Do they need that amount of time?

20:22:
And I think the answer that we’re finding is no.

20:24:
Let’s go back to what I talked about between the Europe model and the US model.

20:32:
, Europe 3 colleges.

20:32:
They don’t have that 4th year.

20:34:
It’s usually considered master.

20:36:
And NU just happen to be one of the first universities to get a 3 year BSIT.

20:42:
Now we use 3 years of vernacular.

20:43:
It doesn’t mean you’re gonna finish in 3 the same way it doesn’t mean you can finish in 4, but it is designed to reduced credit offers to be completed if you go full time in 3 years.

20:53:
What that does is not a full year there.

20:55:
What we’re trying to do here is say, look, we know your goals.

21:00:
Go to make more money, go with the American dream.

21:04:
What do you need elective?

21:05:
What do you need that year for?

21:07:
It’s not giving you value, then you can go to the job.

21:11:
So we now have that program.

21:13:
And we’re, we’re launching it in the next month, , and I think there’s trend towards that European model of three-year bachelor.

21:21:
I think that’s gonna be the next wave is, you know, higher education heard loud and clear from the general public.

21:28:
Don’t make me take more courses that I don’t see value in.

21:31:
That’s true, but we got to do a heck of a better job on the higher education side and helping understand, helping people understand that maybe you’re not ready yet for those upper level courses, and what I don’t want to see is people who come in thinking that they’re a certain level of information or knowledge or ability and getting that, getting that reality check of, oh man, I haven’t taken algebra I haven’t done elsewhere.

21:54:
15 years, what am I doing?

21:55:
I haven’t written a formal paper in 10 years.

21:58:
Circling back, I think that’s what higher education is to do a good job of leveraging AI to help teach people how to advance more quickly into being able to do those things because just like I use it every day for my job, why can’t we use it every day to go to school.

22:13:
Yeah.

22:15:
No, that’s a great perspective, and we’ve talked about AI kind of being behind the scenes, you know, helping with marketing, with admissions, but I kind of wanna push the conversation into the classroom for a minute here.

22:28:
, because there’s this rising question a lot of educators and students are wrestling with.

22:34:
Can AI actually replace a teacher or supplement one in a meaningful way?

22:39:
, I’m seeing like some, like, on LinkedIn the other day I was seeing a post where students like there are schools that have actually started implementing AI taking classes instead of a physical teacher being present.

22:55:
And I’m just trying to understand your perspective, like, you know, do you think this is something that can happen and what are sort of the pros and cons that come with this, right?

23:05:
Cause I’m sure every perspective specifically utilizing AI definitely has both sides to it.

23:11:
So I’d love to hear your thoughts.

23:14:
Yeah, I mean that this goes kind of back to that, that replacement paradox, right?

23:20:
Yeah.

23:21:
Everybody’s job is, is up for grabs by AI.

23:24:
What’s the point?

23:25:
, I don’t, I don’t think that we should look at it as can AI replace teachers.

23:31:
I, I think it’s a tool.

23:32:
I think it can definitely complement it because What we know is a, you know, processing terminal.

23:38:
It’s, it’s, it’s something that you teach and it learns very quickly and can compile a lot of data very quickly.

23:44:
So similar to how students want if they wanted to interact with the faculty member, they physically had to go to the campus, right?

23:53:
, they had to sit there and go to the lecture and, you know, and do the, , the give and take on that.

23:59:
And then online came along and there’s a new tool.

24:02:
And there was a pushback because it wasn’t in person and they felt like, well, you’re not really connected.

24:07:
And then it went from being synchronous to asynchronous, which means that you never really met face to face or even virtually with your family.

24:15:
You corresponded with them in some sort of chat with some sort of board, right?

24:20:
And so every level of this has been, has been people kind of gatekeeping and saying, oh well, that’s not the way I did it, so it’s not as good.

24:27:
And that’s just human nature to say, well, you didn’t do it my way, so you didn’t do it the right way.

24:32:
Yeah.

24:32:
OK.

24:33:
Well, you know, evolution is a thing and you know, society moves forward.

24:38:
Sorry.

24:39:
So, what I see is this is AI is a complementary tool, a supplementary tool to the interaction between the human and the human.

24:48:
I do believe that there’s going to be a lot of of base coursework that Maybe will help lower the cost of tuition cost of education for some schools, right?

25:02:
For, for, , the consumer out there, like we are talking about.

25:06:
If you come into the thing and hey, I want to advance my, my skill, my skills, and I, I really do need this degree for the next level or I need some sort of credential to show in order to get into the career vertical that I want.

25:18:
And you’re absolutely convinced that you don’t need a formal 3 credit hour, 68, 12 week course to do it.

25:28:
Cool.

25:29:
I’m more than happy to say, here’s a, here’s a a test out platform.

25:33:
Here’s an AI class that’s pennies on the dollar.

25:36:
Show what you know.

25:37:
Mm.

25:38:
And if you know the same amount of info, if you can demonstrate that you have the skill and knowledge that a 3 credit hour class is gonna show me at the end of it when you pass it.

25:47:
Then use AI to do it, right?

25:49:
So I see a vertical there where people can come in and you already have some of this out there and some of the massive online open cohorts, the simple learns, all those courses that are out there because you’re not actually dealing with a faculty member, but a faculty faculty member, curriculum developer, content subject matter matter expert created that curriculum.

26:06:
AI might be the delivery model.

26:07:
I see that helping us evolve how we teach, but at the end of the day, the input comes from a human.

26:15:
And I see again going back to my comment about the premium of me is I would want somebody who is an expert to be the person teaching me and maybe maybe they can be the one who does it, but they learn from somebody else and I think if, if we look at it from a classroom standpoint, I think in the classroom where the faculty is, you know, the, the main brand proposition for a lot of schools is your connection between your students and your faculty is critical.

26:43:
I see that AI becomes more like a, a faculty aid in the classroom.

26:47:
Something that can interact and keep students more engaged in the classroom when the faculty can’t be there, but I just don’t see doing it replacing, , full faculty members.

26:59:
But you never know.

27:00:
I mean, it could happen, and I don’t have a crystal ball, and it would be a sad day.

27:05:
Some people were fully replaced by animated faculty members.

27:09:
I don’t think, I don’t see it happening anytime soon, but a lot of it has to do with again the gatekeeping higher education.

27:14:
I don’t think higher education will let that happen, but who knows it could be their doom if they don’t volve for.

27:20:
Now that’s a very unique perspective.

27:22:
And do you think universities have or should have a role in shaping ethical AI behavior?

27:29:
, cause, you know, it’s not just using to responsibly anymore, but kind of taking the.

27:37:
Responsibility in teaching the next generation how to question and work with these systems.

27:42:
Is that something that is being raised in the space?

27:46:
Because when we talk about AI in my workspace these days, the ethical considerations are definitely, you know, things that kind of come up.

27:55:
So just curious to hear your perspective.

27:58:
Yeah, I mean, the, the biggest thing right now is When it comes to AI in my opinion.

28:06:
And what are you using to teach them off?

28:09:
Right.

28:10:
And is that information proprietary?

28:13:
And so you’ll see some lawsuits that are out there about them maybe.

28:18:
Harvesting information from from copyrighted material that they didn’t, they didn’t have ownership of and then using that and passing off his expertise and, and, , so I think that’s the 1st, 1st line of what’s ethical and what’s not.

28:32:
Is everything open, , for public consumption because you know it’s, it’s, it can be grabbed by an AI model and talk to somebody, and I would say no because I think every day you’re having people working, .

28:47:
To developing theories, , new approaches across the board on different sciences, different verticals of business, , I just, I don’t think that there’s enough social or public awareness of asking the question, how are we teaching these, these AI models?

29:06:
What are we doing, right?

29:08:
And who owns it as far as, , the ethical implication of that.

29:14:
Look, if, if What you use to teach the model is stolen content or content that isn’t proprietary or that isn’t yours, , but you’re teaching that in the classroom, I think that’s a big ethical concern.

29:26:
I think it’s not yours to teach, right?

29:29:
And so it becomes a question of who owns what, , outside of that you run into a lot of, I think.

29:38:
More generationally relevant questions for some people, , again, the gatekeeping of, well, you know, right now I, I don’t like when students use, use a help write their papers and it has to be formatted this way.

29:54:
Look, if you’re good enough at prompting, and you understand.

29:58:
And you can get a a paper out and and even if it’s, you know, a significant portion of it was rendered by AI.

30:05:
So what?

30:06:
I’m one that I just don’t care, right?

30:08:
But you’re, you know, that’s gonna piss a lot of people off who are more traditionalists, , in education.

30:15:
And so I was reading something the other day on LinkedIn that, that, , somebody said, hey, I love it when there’s a paper that has a a misspelling or comma out of place or formatting isn’t exactly right because it tells me that human wrote it.

30:30:
OK, we’re going back to the, the value proposition of human interaction.

30:35:
So I think the ultimate question on the ethics of this is if all all AI ever does is replace and disconnect humans from one another, that’s the concern I have because I think we have enough evidence recently generationally impacted young adults and even emerging, , young adults here, younger children.

30:58:
On social media engagement and disconnecting and fear of missing out and body image issues and everybody and everything’s polished and perfect so the world isn’t perfect.

31:10:
And if all you ever see is a polished perfect image in your head, then it distorts your worldview and it can cause a crash and that’s not who we are.

31:22:
That’s not how we evolve.

31:24:
We we need to be connected.

31:26:
So my biggest fear about AI is similar to that of social media and really being disconnected from one another.

31:34:
Yeah.

31:35:
I think it’s an ethical question of how much more will this perhaps disconnect us or does it have the potential to bring us closer together.

31:42:
And I think that if the answer if done right, is that it’s gonna bring us together, then good thing it’s a great tool.

31:47:
I think that online is both.

31:51:
I think I can talk to people from across the world in a way that I would never be able to without it, but online also gives you a lot of things that disconnect us.

31:59:
It gives you misinformation.

32:01:
It gives you chat rooms and people who just do nothing but hate and troll, and spread this information.

32:07:
So there’s a duality of the wavelength, and my hope is that the, the side of light, the side of good, and we go, we go and we, we fall to the side of doing the right thing as, as a people as a society.

32:20:
And that’s how it went because if we cave into our darkest impulses we’ve seen through history, which resulted.

32:26:
So that’s the ethical question for me.

32:27:
I don’t think that’s higher education specific.

32:29:
I think that’s just, , you know, my worldview on what I hope AI becomes and whether or not we can train ethically in a way and use it ethically in a way in the same way predominantly we have with other tools, knowing full well, there’s gonna be a segment always is of society.

32:46:
It’s gonna violate that.

32:48:
It’s gonna use it as a tool of destruction or tool to, to, to hurt or harm.

32:54:
And so the light has to win.

32:56:
So I’m hoping that we have some great minds working on this, or at least better minds.

33:00:
Definitely.

33:02:
Brent, before we wrap up today, I know this has been such an incredible session, and I know I have definitely learned a lot and your perspective has just been amazing.

33:13:
, before we can wrap up, I’d love to ask you one last question, and that would be what’s your advice to marketers today, especially those that are kind of, you know, trying to stay relevant with AI everywhere and with attention that is so fragmented in this world and, you know, the things that we kind of talked about with all the changes, if you could have one piece of advice for marketers out there, what would it be?

33:41:
I learn where people are.

33:42:
And meet them there.

33:44:
.

33:46:
I think there’s a, a dangerous assumption in marketing, especially like higher education, higher education in general, and your world views your world and it’s really hard to, to see things differently unless you force and train yourself to do it.

34:00:
And so understanding that what you know and what your experience has been is one thing.

34:07:
But it’s that walk a mile in somebody else’s shoes.

34:10:
And so the challenge is, is that where you might be and what you might know, you can’t project that on, OK?

34:17:
And so what I, what I talk in training, just for example, our admissions team to do.

34:22:
Let’s find out where they are and come at them, come with them from their perspective, from that place.

34:28:
Don’t assume they know, right?

34:30:
Give you a great example.

34:32:
, if, if you ask the average person out there that is not in higher education what accreditation is, right?

34:39:
They’re gonna know that a school should have it, but I, I challenge you to get a better answer out of them on what accreditation is.

34:46:
And so we make a big deal about it in higher ed, and we should, it’s important, , but to Joe average out there, I just, I don’t think they have really put the time and effort into it because it’s just not a value proposition, but they know they should have it.

35:00:
And so let’s not focus on that.

35:01:
What they’re worried about is, all right, if I’m gonna spend my time doing this, first of all, am I smart enough?

35:10:
Am I financially stable enough?

35:13:
Can I fit this into my life schedule?

35:15:
Does it mean I’m selfish if I take time away from my family?

35:19:
How am I gonna do my job, you know, 10 hours a day, I commute for 1 hour a day?

35:23:
When do I sleep?

35:24:
Understand where they’re coming from.

35:26:
And understand it from a marketing standpoint that the first thing you have to talk to is their nature is their human.

35:31:
Where are they on the journey, OK?

35:33:
And what you end up seeing, you end up seeing a lot of, I’m here to gain interest of, of that market.

35:39:
I’m just gonna tell them that we exist and that’s great.

35:41:
But then what are you gonna do next?

35:42:
OK, you.

35:43:
Got their attention.

35:44:
What’s their next step in their journey?

35:46:
You got their attention.

35:47:
They know you exist.

35:49:
They’re thinking that they’re in market, they’re thinking about it.

35:51:
What do they do?

35:53:
OK.

35:53:
And this is where the, the nuances, and I think this is what’s going to be the people who survive and people who do not as we change from AI and that is.

36:02:
How do we get them from A to B?

36:04:
How do we get them from that next phase?

36:05:
I found out about it, but I gotta get him to take an action.

36:08:
And so call to action is great, , but I’m using things right now like, you know, , survey funnels or, or quiz funnels to try to engage people in something more meaningful, something more engaging.

36:23:
That will then lead to them saying, oh, OK, I’m curious now about this.

36:26:
So meet them what they are, find out what they’re curious about, talk about that, and then have an engaging story and use it from a perspective that they can identify with and they can.

36:36:
Oh, that’s such a wonderful perspective, and this has been incredibly, like, you know, insightful today.

36:45:
We’ve been able to discuss not just the role of AI in higher education and marketing, but also about the responsibility that kind of comes with it and how do people kind of adapt with the change that is coming and it’s kind of here now, right?

37:00:
So, , for anyone that wants to kind of connect with you, know more about your work, how can they find you?

37:09:
, for me personally, , I would just recommend coming to, , national.edu.

37:15:
That’s our, our website, and you, you call the phone number on there, you wanna talk to me, you’ll be able to find me a home, you know, we’re, we’re, , we’re close-knit school, , we’re always accessible.

37:26:
I think that’s where, you know, you’re gonna find the difference between any of you and a lot of other institutions is, , they all say they care and I’m sure they do, but you’re gonna find out real quickly how we surround you.

37:39:
So if you want to talk to me, I’m always available.

37:41:
You can find my information on site.

37:43:
You can call that number and somebody will transfer you over to me.

37:46:
, if not, find me on LinkedIn, , you have my name.

37:49:
I’m out there, but, , I’m always excited to hear, you know, what, what other people are doing.

37:55:
, I think you gotta be open to learning.

37:58:
, I think the scariest thing for me right now is, is that people, , People who don’t see failure as an opportunity, who don’t embrace it as a as a chance to better or learn or do something differently.

38:12:
So I want to hear from you guys if you guys are doing something outstanding in the higher education space or in marketing and vertical, , in general, reach out, let’s chat, you’re good with it, and if not, good luck with what you’re doing.

38:26:
Thank you so much, Brent, for joining us today.

38:29:
This has been a wonderful session, and for our listeners, thank you so much for also listening and please feel free to share your thoughts on the episode and catch us on our next one for, you know, curious insights about AI data, and what’s happening in the marketing space.

38:50:
So until then, keep leading with clarity and let’s build what’s next together.

38:55:
Thank you again, Brent.

38:57:
Thank you.

38:57:
Have a good day.

podcast